Retirement has changed dramatically since our parent’s generation. People are living far longer with far better health than ever before, both mentally and physically. Instead of slowing down, people are leaving their jobs feeling ready to take on the world. They’re financially independent, they’re active, and they’re capable—and then suddenly, they have nothing to do.

Ted Kaufman and Bruce Hiland’s new book Retiring?: Your Next Chapter Is about Much More Than Money takes a profound look at 21st-century retirement, helping you plan all the non-financial aspects of what comes next. Drawing the expertise of today’s modern vibrant retirees, Retiring? offers a concise, practical, and conversational guide to the best chapter of your life.

Drew Appelbaum: Hey Listeners, my name is Drew Appelbaum and I’m excited to be here today with Ted Kaufman and Bruce Hiland, authors of Retiring: Your next chapter is about much more than money. Ted, Bruce, thank you for joining. Welcome to The Author Hour podcast.

Ted Kaufman: Glad to be here.

Bruce Hiland: Pleasure to be here, Drew.

Drew Appelbaum: Now, let’s kick this off. Can you give us a rundown of, maybe, your professional backgrounds, or what you two are doing today?

Ted Kaufman: Bruce and I started out on a similar road, and that was, we both went to get a master’s business administration at the Wharton School a long time ago. Then after that, I went on to go to work for the DuPont Company in Wilmington Delaware. I worked there for a number of years. Then in 1972, I was working for the development department, but I had some spare time, so I started working around the Democratic party. In the process of doing that, I met a 29-year-old New Castle County councilman named Joe Biden who was thinking about running for Senate that year. I had also met his sister who ran his campaign, Valerie Biden-Owens.

Valerie called me one day and said, “Would you come down and talk to my brother about helping his campaign?” I went down and visited with him and he said, “What do you think?”

“Well,” I said, “Joe, I really think you’re really talking about some great issues. You really are in issues that I really agree with, but the problem is, for you is, there are no elected Democrats in Delaware and at your position. The governor’s Republican, the two senators are Republican, the congressperson’s a Republican, the Mayor of Wilmington’s a Republican, the legislature are Republicans. Not only that, but you’re running in 1972 with Richard Nixon at the top of the Republican ticket and George McGovern at the Democratic, and it’s clear that Nixon was a lot more popular in Delaware than McGovern.”

I said, “I will work for you in this campaign, but I don’t think you’ll win.”

And then he smiled and said, “Okay, well we will just see.” Of course, the rest is history.

He did win, and then he hired me to work for him. For 22 years, I worked for him, most of those years as his chief of staff until 1995. Then, in 1995 I decided it was time to do other things, and so I did that.

That’s really the definition of what retirement is—I really retired in 1995. I was still working 65 hours a week, but it was at my direction, it was based on what I want to do. Working for Joe Biden was a wonderful experience—a great person to work with and I continued to work with him to almost 25, 26 years after that.

One of the major things I did was I went to teach at Duke University School of Law. I taught there and at the Sanford School of Public Policy and also at The Fuqua, a business school, for 26 years. Again, I retired.

Then in 2008, Joe Biden was elected vice-president of the United States, and the governor, Governor Ruth Ann Minner, had to find someone to replace him for two years in the senate and she picked me. I spent two years in the United States Senate. At that point, I consider that failing retirement.

I did that for two years, and when that was over, I was chairman of the Congressional Oversight Panel of the TARP, and I did a number of things, including helping then Vice-President Biden. I went on his staff for a while and then in 2020, I got very involved in his campaign. In February 2020, he asked me to lead the possible President Biden presidential transition if, in fact, he won the race. I led the transition, hired the people, set it up, really had wonderful people, and then he won, and the transition ended on January 21st at the inauguration. And I am now in the process of trying to get back to being retired.

Bruce Hiland’s Journey from NYSE to Farms to Real Estate

Bruce Hiland: Ted and I managed to screw up retirement regularly. I came out of Wharton, went into management consulting, and went to McKinsey. Then because my real interest there was working with the human side of top management, after five years or so I went off on my own and had a fascinating career, pretty much all the way through as an independent management consultant. Typically, I had one, maybe two chief executives that I worked alongside.

My first effort at retirement came about in 1991. In the late 80s, my principal client was the chairman of the New York Stock Exchange. During that time, my wife and I bought a place in Vermont, which was our sanctuary from New York. When my client found out this, found out about the purchase, he said, “Okay, here’s the deal, you don’t retire until I do,” because he could see what was shaping up. Anyway, he retired, and then I retired the first time in ’91.

I went from New York to a little village outside of Middlebury Vermont, grew a beard, started working at what I call a ‘fun farm’ with 20 acres or so. We had all the sheep, goats and cattle you could ask for. That lasted about six months, and I got a call from the chairman’s successor who suggested that I stopped building stone walls and get back to New York and give him a hand. Six months was kind of like a sabbatical for me. I went back full bore, commuting from Vermont to New York every other week and did that until very early 2002.

After the 9/11 experience, the whole business world in New York obviously changed. My 90-year-old parents also decided to move from Florida to Vermont to retire, and we had some opportunities to help them there. So in January 2002, I retired for the second time.

That didn’t really take because I got drawn into, and thoroughly enjoyed, being involved in all sorts of activities in Vermont with startup businesses. I got drafted to take over the school board. Along with a few partners, we owned a historic building, the core building in Middlebury. One of my partners had been running that for a number of years, then all of a sudden, he decided to move to Colorado. So the next thing I knew, I was in the real estate business. I took that over and ran that for 16 years.

The third and I think successful time was 2017. We sold the building, I stepped off all my community boards and backed off all my involvements. And, here we are: 81 years old and enjoying the winters in Florida and the rest of the year in Vermont.

What Retirement Now Really Means

Drew Appelbaum: Did you have an “Aha!” moment, or was it something as simple as, “Hey, now you’re actually finally retired” you had some extra time on your hands and you picked this book up as a hobby?

Bruce Hiland: Well, I’ll just pick up on that quickly, I don’t think there was an “Aha!” moment. Ted and I, as I said, we’d get together for coffee over at the Burger King down when we wintered here together down here in Florida. We kept finding more and more stories about people we knew or heard of who really weren’t happy in their retirement. You kind of trade anecdotes.

Out of the conversation came a realization on both of our parts that, first off, we’ve been very fortunate, but there was a pattern here of people that were approaching retirement without doing enough planning about what they wanted to do. And there were people who would retire who had adequate resources, but they didn’t have anything that was really satisfying them, using their time well. The trigger moment was the day Ted looked across the table and said, “Hey, we ought to write a book.” That was four years ago, I think.

Ted Kaufman: Yeah, we’d talked about this for a while. We just repeatedly came across people who were very unhappy. They spent a lot of time planning the financial side of what they were going to do—which we encourage everyone to do that reads the book, get the financial things straightened out—but they really hadn’t spent the time worrying about what it’s going to do. I know that sounds crazy, but we just kept running into people, they had just not figured out what they were going to do.

When our parents all retired, they usually worked for a major organization and they usually retired at 65. Back then with the life expectancy, they probably lived seven, eight years, or something like that. They’d be looking forward to that. Essentially, you could just do a few things and, after about four or five years, they found out, “Well, I traveled a lot and I like my golf and I’m doing all these things, but I need something more.” But they didn’t have to worry about it for too long.

What has happened now, more and more when we talk to people, is a lot of people are retiring at 55.

That was one of the hardest things to do with the book, because we’ve got two different groups: the group of our parents and the people who are retiring now.

Again, our definition of retirement is not when you get a check and a gold watch—Retirement Now is when you can work on the things you want to work on, that you can be your own boss, kind of what I did when I left the Senate office in 1995. I’d get up every morning and make the decision to where I was going. Bruce did the same thing—we said, “Here are the things that we want to do.” We had reached what we thought was retirement.

It’s a very different situation because if you’re 55 years old now, you have a life expectancy of 30 years. You have to plan the financial piece, but then you’ve really got to plan what it is you’re going to be doing with your retirement. The old day’s retirement just doesn’t work for 30 something years. As I said, I taught at Duke Law school for 26 years after I retired!

One of the hardest things that Bruce and I had to deal with in the book was these two different views on retirement. That’s when we came to the definition that retirement is time.

Who Needs Retiring?

Drew Appelbaum: So, while the two of you were planning on writing this book, in your mind, who were you writing it for?

Bruce Hiland: I think the focal point, as we were writing, was a person who was approaching retirement, whether it was within two years, three years, five years, whatever. That gave us the three big questions you’ve got to answer:

  • When are you going to retire?
  • What do you want to do?
  • And where are you going to live?

And then, to think about planning how you take care of yourself, as we said. First it’s your body, then it’s your mind, and then it’s your heart, and then it’s your soul.

What we wanted was a concise practical guide for somebody who was approaching retirement. We tell them right upfront, if you haven’t done your financial planning, you should do that first because you have to understand what your resources are as you try to make these decisions and these plans.

That was the first person that we were talking to. However, in the process of going back over all the anecdotes we’d heard and sharing a lot of this with friends and acquaintances, we found out that what we were talking about and the way we were talking about it was very helpful for people that had retired perhaps two years, three years, four years, five years ago, but had found out they hadn’t done the planning. They weren’t fulfilled, they weren’t finding a good use of their time.

And then, the third group, which I was reminded of only yesterday, is the partners of people who are retiring. Getting the conversations going where there’s a partnership so that you can make good decisions and carry them out.

Ted Kaufman: We really did start out though, thinking prospectively, I think based on our experience. We both had planned for our retirement a number of years in advance. In my case, 1991.

I was working as Senator Biden’s Chief of Staff, and we were involved in Supreme Court nominations and we used to hire a constitutional expert every time we did it from the university. We hired a Constitutional Expert from Duke Law School. He came to me and said, “Ted, I want to teach a course at the Duke Law School on Congress. Will you teach it with me?” I said, “Oh Chris, look, if you’re Chief of Staff for a senior United States Senator,” and Senator Biden was one of the two “you don’t have time to do anything like that.” He said, “Well, just think it over.”

I went home that night and talked to the smarter of my half. In about 15 minutes, she said, “Well, what is your plan for what you’re going to do? I mean, are you going to do this for the rest of your life?”

Over a series of about a week, we said “I really would like to get out on my own at some point.” We figured out 1995. I went back to Chris and said, “If you’re still interested, I think I may have a way to do this.” He said, “Sure, I’m interested.” I said, “But I’ve got to talk to Senator Biden.”

I sat down with Senator Biden. I said to him, “Chris asked me to teach with him at the Duke Law School, and it’s something I’d really like to do.” I said, “There’s only one class a week on Mondays, and I could fly down to Durham on Monday morning, teach the course, and be back that night.”

He was really enthusiastic, and said, “I think that’s great, Ted. I think that’s really something that you really ought to do.” It turned out to be a wonderful, wonderful experience. And then, at 1995, I retired.

It’s fair to say that was the original target is people like that. Then, once we got started, as Bruce said, he talked to so many people who really failed retirement, and it was clear that the information’s the same, we just had to kind of reorient it.

Rethinking American Retirement

Drew Appelbaum: What’s wrong, if anything, with the way Americans typically approach retirement? You know, you set a financial number, you hope to get to that number and then you relax in the sun—is that not how it works out?

Bruce Hiland: That’s an interesting caricature. I think there’s a couple of different forces at work there. First off, there’s an incredible amount of money spent telling people that are going to retire that all they’ve got to work on is financial planning. You see the ads, you see the articles, you see the gurus on TV. I think that can distract people from thinking about how they’re going to spend their time.

The second part of it is that the idea of having a blank slate scares a lot of people. I have a colleague I’ve worked with for 20-odd years, who heads a very prestigious wealth management organization. He suggested that, early on, when we were talking about the concept of this book, “Oh yeah, the title ought to be Overcoming Denial.”

He said the problem is, they’re working with their clients all the time on, obviously, wealth management and financial issues. Because of the relationships they have, they were instinctively trying to get these clients to think about, “Okay, what are you going to do with the rest of your life?” That’s substantial resources in most cases. “How are you going to spend your time? What do you want to do?”

It’s not just, “What are you going to do with your money?” it’s “What are you going to do with your life?”

He explained that that conversation was a non-starter with an awful lot of people because they didn’t want to think about what they were going to ‘be’ or ‘do’ after they stopped ‘being’ or ‘doing’ whatever they are.

There’s an anecdote that bears on this: I was going through meeting a new client, being escorted around by the CEO and we were walking around the headquarters’ top floor, and there was a corridor that went off to the right and there were a bunch of offices, fancy offices. I said, “So, what’s down there?”

He said, “Those are the ‘formerlies’. He was formerly secretary of whatever, he was formerly CEO of such and such.” These were people that had retired, they were kind of board-level advisors but didn’t know what they wanted to do and they were just kind of hanging on. It turns out these people weren’t too happy. They didn’t add a lot of value because they hadn’t figured out what to do after they left their principal position. So, a lot of forces at work.

Ted Kaufman: One of my favorite sayings is “change is great, you go first.” Change is difficult to deal with, that’s number one. Number two is, for most people, for a lot of people, the years before they retire are the most productive and most important and, in many cases, the busiest time of their lives. That’s when they’ve reached the epitome of their career. It’s not like they’ve got a whole lot of time to sit down and figure out what they’re going to do. As Bruce said, there’s a lot of denial going on, there’s a lot of emphasis on the financial side.

If you just go look at the books that are available on retirement, I bet well over 95% of them are about finances. People said, “Well, I don’t have a whole lot of time to do this, I’m very busy, why don’t I go with the stuff that’s easy?”

It’s a lot easier to sit down with a Wealth Manager when you don’t have a whole lot of time in your daily schedule to do it and figure out the math of what it is that you want to be doing than sit down and say, “Okay, what is it that I’m going to be doing when I get out?”

The other side is what people find when they retire. Joe Biden has a great quote—he said, “Your job is about a lot more than a paycheck. What your job is and who you are in the community, it’s the people you know, it’s the people you deal with.”

What I found over and over again, people would say, “Well, I left the job and then I thought I’d have this time and I’d go to lunch with my friends, and the vast majority of my friends are people that I worked with every day.” I have so many friends in Wilmington that worked for DuPont, they are still talking about what happened back at DuPont, like, 30 years ago. And then, what happens is, you don’t have much to talk about anymore.

I didn’t have this experience, but many people told me and Bruce that after they meet, they have lunch and then they have lunch again a month later, and then they just kind of drift away, because the only thing they had in common with those folks was the job.

So, once you leave the job, you leave behind the recognition of who you are in the community, you leave behind the friends that you made for the many years that you worked in the job and in the industry, That is one of the reasons why we wrote the book. Because so many people failed retirement and so many and so many people’s partners, spouses said that their spouse had failed retirement and they were just not enjoying it.

That’s one of the reasons why people don’t do the planning. It’s because it is very hard and, as Bruce said earlier, it is also about denial. “I’ve got other things I’m doing, it is going to be hard, I’ll figure that out when I retire.”

What to Consider in Planning

Drew Appelbaum: What are the really important questions that you should be asking yourself—besides anything monetary—when you are thinking about retirement?

Bruce Hiland: Well, as I mentioned a minute ago, Drew, the book is structured so that we invite the reader into addressing three questions.

The choice of when to retire is much more the individual’s than it used to be, and people do realize that they can retire before the retirement date. There’s an anecdote in the book: A friend of mine who was retired at 55 was going full bore in a big corporation and was talking to a guy who was 10 years his senior, outside of business. The conversation was about work and getting to retirement, and this guy said, “You ought to retire now.”

Nick said, “Why?” And he said, “Because the next 10 years are going to be the best years of your retirement if you do it now.” So the first question is “When?”

And then the next question is: “What are you going to do?” And that’s the big question that we’ve talked about—the critical importance of having a central focus. We use the metaphor of having an anchor store. When you are building a mall, you want to have an anchor store, and then you could fill in around the anchor store with other things you want to do.

Then, given when you’re going to retire and what you’re going to be doing: “Where do you want to live?” That is a question that keeps coming up again as you move through retirement because as your activities change, you may want to be in different places. Those are the three core questions.

Then, we talk about the importance of maintaining yourself and all the parts of yourself. There are plenty of questions and worksheets in the book to get people to think carefully and intelligently about how they maintain their mind, their body, their heart. When I say ‘heart’, I mean in the sense of relationships, the heart that goes pitter-pat when you pick up your granddaughter. And then, your soul. We don’t talk about that in religious terms, we’re talking about ‘the soul’ in the sense of that feeling you have as to how your life has contributed. You know, “What was this all about?” and that needs to get some attention. Interestingly, the research shows that people in their 60s, which is about the time all of this is going to be going on, start thinking about, “Okay, what do I want to do that’s meaningful?”

It doesn’t have to be meaningful in a grand social sense, but meaningful to me so that I have, maybe my partner and I have the sense of having made of a good trip.

Ted Kaufman: Yeah, and a number of studies show that—again, not necessarily religious—spending your senior years on spiritual things increases the quality and the length of your life. In the book, we have a number of books and websites on the spiritual side, and I think that’s important.

The basic challenge for retirement is determining “What should the rhythm of my life be?”

There is a rhythm of someone who is nearing retirement where they are doing twenty-four hundred thousand things at an incredible rate of speed and you can’t get into them too deeply. Again, people that are working can get into things deeply, but I am saying they have to do it at a high rate of speed.

One of the toughest things about the two times that I failed retirement and Bruce failed retirement, which we agreed on right away, was you kind of spend doing really important things, but also doing them deeper.

The best example I can give is when I came off the center of Biden’s presidential campaign. If you talk to people who are involved in presidential campaigns, one of the most high-speed things that I’ve ever seen in my life, it’s the fact that it’s very difficult after a campaign is over to get back to your normal rhythm.

About a year after the campaign was over, I was still trying to get my rhythm under control, and there was a faucet in the basement of our house. I went down, I looked at the faucet and it needed to be fixed. I worked on it for about 15 minutes and I got it back together again so it was working. I started to walk away and I turned around and I looked at it and I said, “You know, I know that in a week from now I’m going to be back to working on this thing. Ted, why don’t you get it right, spend the time—you have the time now—to really fix the faucet?”

I think that’s the thing that’s the hardest to do when you go into retirement is to kind of get your rhythm of your life, to do things that are slower moving. Instead of a mile-wide and an eighth inch deep, you’re trying to go an eighth inch wide and a mile deep. When you fail retirement like Bruce and I did, it takes a while. When I failed the first time as a Senator for two years, it took me a year and a half to get back to the rhythm that I had developed 1995 and 2010.

The other thing that makes it difficult is people have the illusion that they worked on the non-financial things. Three things come up of what you’re going to do when you retire: one is “I’m going to travel,” two is “I’m going to play golf” or sports or something like hunting or fishing, and then the third is “I’m going to spend time with my kids and my grandkids.” But again, if you have a seven-year retirement that can really fill up your days, but it won’t fill up twenty-five years. You really need to have something more substantive than that.

How to Retire Happily

Drew Appelbaum: You mentioned that your friends had thought they built up to retirement correctly but they were still unhappy—did they have other issues that led to their unhappiness?

Ted Kaufman: That’s a good question. We get back to the common ones we talked about before: the lack of planning leading up to what they were doing, the misperception about what it is that they wanted to do, and once they started doing it, the length of time that retirement is now involved in retirement. The definition of what retirement is.

It is really a complex matrix of things that lead people to fail retirement, and that’s really why we wrote the book. The main reason we wrote the book was to kind of lay out a workbook effect: “Here are all the different areas that you should be watching out for when you retire, and then once you watch out for them, here are the places that you can go to get the information to help you to solve these problems.”

Bruce Hiland: Yeah, just to add to Ted’s comment, one of the structural ideas that we hit on early, trying to figure out how to put this all together in a useful form is that this is going to be a little bit like a guidebook that you’d use planning a major vacation or a major adventure. The simple fact is that everybody’s retirement is different because everybody’s different. My quick answer to that, Drew, would be every failed retirement is a special story to that person.

When we were trying to figure out how to be helpful—which is our sole objective of this—we avoided being prescriptive. We avoided suggesting that there were one or maybe two or three right things to do.

On the highest level, it’s kind of the Socratic approach to getting them to work through their personal answers are and their personal plans and with their partner when there is a partner involved.

Every retirement is different, every person is different.

Resources and Advisors

Drew Appelbaum: I think we all know that there are financial retirement advisors out there, but to your point, you two are saying that there’s so much more. Are there other outside resources?

Bruce Hiland: Well, Ted mentioned we folded a lot of resources into the book. We reference them, we footnote things and their reference to the back of the book, and then we suggest additional resources for the individual who recognizes a particular point that they want to have a better understanding of. They go off and do it themselves. I mean, this is a major life project.

As far as there being ‘groups’, I don’t know of any groups. I am sure that people have book groups. You could probably, in a suburb, you could probably put together an ‘about to retire’ group. I haven’t heard of any.

There are a handful of people out there that I think, I don’t know what the terminology is now, it’s like ‘Retirement Councilors’ or something? There is some name that suggests they want to offer this personal consultant service. That might work for some.

Ted Kaufman: I think most of the people can kind of figure it out. I think, as Bruce said earlier, it’s really important to talk to your spouse or your significant other, and I think it is really important to talk to your family. In a strange way, it’s really important to talk to the people that you’re presently working with, especially the person that you are working for, and get their advice. I know Senator Biden was very helpful to me when I was working through what it is that I was going to be doing. I think it is good to talk to people you know who have already retired.

I’m totally opposed to reinventing the wheel. Find somebody that’s done it, seems to be doing it well, and ask them for their help.

Bruce Hiland: To add one note to that: one of the things that I found early on after I left New York to go to the country in 1991 and be a fun farmer—one of the things was getting feedback from people that you would interact with in different circumstances, outside the job place.

Here I was, this guy who was oriented to the New York business world and operating in my pace, and now up in this little village in Vermont, which doesn’t operate at a New York pace. I was in a conversation with somebody I’d gotten to know enough to ask the question, and I said, “So, how am I being perceived?” And he kind of clocked his head and looked at me, he said, “You’re scaring a lot of people.”

I said, “Excuse me?” He said, “Yeah, you move so fast and you want to get things done yesterday,” and that was extremely important feedback to have at that moment because I was trying to figure out how I was going to spend my time. That was just a little bit of counseling that came out of nowhere.

Giving your friends, people that are close to you, people that have seen you in action and kind of have a grasp of what you’re doing—giving them an opportunity to provide input is essential.

Ted Kaufman: The other thing is thinking outside the box in terms of what it is that you want to do. I know some of the best examples, in my mind, of people that have been successful—and I’m talking about, in several cases, senior executives.

I remember I had a friend who worked at the New York Stock Exchange as a trader, very, very successful in every way. At his 75th birthday, I asked him what he was doing. He said, “Well, you know, I am coaching an 8th-grade girls’ lacrosse team and I’m working as a volunteer in an animal rescue shelter.”

I had another friend who was a big-time lawyer in the DuPont Company, and he retired and he went to the local big wine store and said to the proprietor, “I want to sell wine.” And the proprietor said, “Well, I don’t need to hire anybody.” He said, “I’ll work for nothing for a while and see how it works out.” He did that for a number of years selling wine. He wasn’t afraid of the fact that people would come in and say, “Oh you were a big-time executive and now you’re selling wine.”

It’s something he really wanted to do, and I think that’s one of the keys to the rhythm, to really get in the rhythm under control with the others. It’s thinking about, “What is it that I really would like to do?” And not to worry so much about what people think about what you’re doing. It’s just, is it something you are finding satisfying?

How to Use Retiring?

Drew Appelbaum: Bruce, you actually mentioned it a few minutes ago, but I’d love to just revisit it in a little bit more detail: Could you talk about the end of the book and what resources are back there?

Bruce Hiland: The way we set it up, appendix A is where to go if the item that we mentioned in the text intrigued you and it’s got a footnote. Then appendix B, we mentioned further resources worth your attention. This was stuff that Ted and I picked up along the way, some of it we came up with, some of it people said, “You ought to include this.” That includes some books and websites.

I’ll just pick the first one—one of my favorite books of all time by Marcus Tullius Cicero called How to Grow Old: Ancient Wisdom for the Second Half of Life. This was written in the second century A.D. but it is a kind of timeless counsel.

Then we mentioned some websites. There is an organization, a website called and it’s fascinating because it was set up by the public broadcasting folks out in the Twin Cities. They put together a website, and blogs, and the like, to help people. I think their target is 55 and over, helping people think about how to have a satisfying life. I think the last time I checked, they had over 75 million hits.

Then, the last one is potential retirement activities. I’ve got a lot of feedback, I think Ted has too, from people who’ve gone over the manuscript because they love it. It is a list of all of the different things that people that we ran into along the line, named as potential retirement activities. So, when you’ve got somebody sitting there thinking, “Oh my god, what am I going to do?” they can go to appendix C. It’s six pages of things that people do in retirement. And it’s just to stimulate their thinking from everything from working in the wine store, to being a tutor, to traveling, special kinds of travel, etc.

Those resources are there and then, the simple fact today, Drew, is that anybody who’s got a keyboard and a computer can do extraordinary research using the web, just tracking down things and finding out what’s behind a place to visit or what’s behind a certain kind of work or anything you want to know. As my son reminded me recently, all the knowledge of mankind is at your fingertips except what’s going to happen next week.

Ted Kaufman: I think you’ll find when you go through each one of these sections it’s kind of like a chocolate chip cookie: A little advice, things like chocolate chips spread throughout the book of places you can go, websites you can go to, people you can talk to, books you can read and then, also obviously the thoughts that Bruce and I collected, which are 99.9% from what people have told us they did and how their experience was.

It’s designed to be something that you can pick up and then and, by going through the book, find which is the best path for you to determine how you can have a successful retirement.

Connect with Ted and Bruce

Drew Appelbaum: Well, Ted and Bruce, I know we just touched on the surface of the book here, but I want to say, writing a book like this, which is really going to help so many folks make the right decisions before or during retirement is no small feat—so congratulations on being published.

Ted Kaufman: Thank you

Bruce Hiland: Thank you, and I would add one last point and that is that any money that comes from this book selling is going to charity.

Drew Appelbaum: That is such a great fact and I’m so happy that you mentioned that. You know, this has really been a pleasure and I’m excited for people to check out the book. Everyone, the book is called Retiring? and you could find it on Amazon. Ted, Bruce, besides checking out the book, where can people connect with you?

Bruce Hiland: Well, we have a website that’s in development with Scribe right now, and our website name, the address is