All work and no play makes for a dull workplace and a costly one. Organizations that provide opportunities for employees to playfully connect, bond and build friendships, see improvements in retention, engagement, and innovation. Intentional play at work creates a culture that benefits all employees physical and mental health and the company’s bottom line.

Welcome back to the Author Hour Podcast. I’m your host, Hussein Al-Baiaty, and I’m joined by author Kristi Herold to celebrate and talk about her new book. It Pays to PLAY: How Play Improves Business Culture. Let’s jump in.

Hello, everyone, I’m here with Kristi. I’m super excited to have this conversation with Kristi Herold. Her new book It Pays to PLAY: How Play Improves Business Culture. I’m really excited because Kristi and I just had a very fun conversation before recording. But I’m really excited to get into this conversation because play is a huge thing in our world. However, the seriousness of work and where we are today in our culture sometimes creates tensions. 

And I want to have this conversation with Kristi about her beginnings, and sort of take us back to the olden days, Kristi, when you’re younger and how you came to this work. We’ll talk about your book and how you found JAM and all that good stuff a little later but I want to give our audience a little bit of a historical background, if you will.

Kristi Herold: Sure. Well, I grew up in Sudbury, Ontario, about four hours north of Toronto, small city. I had two older brothers. I still have two older brothers. And we were all pretty active, sporty kids. One of the earliest funny stories I remember is being like six or seven years old and I said to my mom, “I really want to play soccer.” And there were no girls’ soccer leagues and there were no mixed gender soccer leagues in Sudbury at the time. There were boys’ soccer leagues at the time. This was back in the mid to late ’70s.

So, my mom signed me up as Kris. I had short hair. I always want to look like my brothers. In those days we were called tomboys. So, I was a tomboy growing up, really sporty kid. So, my mom signed me up for this all boys’ soccer league, and I played for the full season and I held my own and the boys just called me Kris and didn’t think much of it. At the end of the season banquet, my mom made me wear a dress, which I was horrified by because I hated wearing dresses when I was a little kid. I love dresses now, but at the time I hated them when I was a little kid. I was so horrified. She was making me wear this dress and the most humorous part was I showed up to the banquet in this dress and this other mom said to my mom, “Siblings weren’t supposed to come.” My mom was like, “That’s Kris. That’s not Kris’ sibling. That is Kristi. That’s Kristi.” They didn’t know. So, like the whole season, they thought I was a boy, including the parents. But I actually was invited to play with them again for a second season. So, I was the only girl in an all-boys soccer league for two years. And thus began, I guess, my love of sports and I ended up playing—I played all sorts of team sports through high school and then I was a competitive ski racer, and then went off to university.

In high school and university, I was always the one organizing people for fun things. I started a social committee in high school organizing scavenger hunts and car rallies, things like that, and murder mysteries amongst the whole school, things like that. Then after university, I moved to Toronto, and I didn’t know a lot of people in Toronto, and it was—I’d heard about sports leagues, these adult recreational sports leagues in the US, in Chicago and in San Francisco, and I thought, “Hey, I could, I could try that in Toronto.” So, I decided just to try—I always knew I wanted to run my own business. My dad was an entrepreneur. Decided I would try starting up the sports leagues just for fun, a fun little—I thought it would be a fun service I could provide and sort of help myself at the same time, meet and connect with new people. Over time, it really took off. And when I started the leagues in 1996, it was old school days, like that was before the Internet. I was grinding it. I was making a lot of phone calls just telling everybody, “This is my idea, and if you like my idea, do you know anyone else who I could call?” I had friends faxing me their address books and then I would call everyone in my friend’s address books and tell them my idea.

Anyway, it ended up, we had about 50 teams sign up, 52 teams the very first season. Fast forward to pre-pandemic, we had about 11,000 teams playing with us annually in 12 different cities in Canada and the US.

Hussein Al-Baiaty: Incredible.


Kristi Herold: We were called Sport Social Club, initially. We rebranded to JAM through the pandemic, because also through the pandemic, we were forced to shut down our sports leagues for 16 months. We had to completely stop running sports. So, we pivoted and started these—we started a new business that was connecting—we wanted to stay true to our purpose of connecting people through play. And we started this new business running corporate virtual events, things like scavenger hunts, and escape rooms and game shows all done online, all virtual. So, we’re connecting corporate teams all around the world for a luncheon laugh. Instead of having to get on an airplane, which people couldn’t do during the pandemic, they could get on a Zoom and have some laughs with their team. And it’s proven to be something that was needed very much during the pandemic, but it’s still now, it’s like, “Wow, this is actually—we don’t have to fly business class and stay in a hotel to have some laughs and connection. We can do that remotely.” And then now we’ve also started doing a lot of in-person events, connecting people through play with a bunch of fun in-person events, as well. Amazing races and all sorts of things. So, that’s sort of the backstory on where I came to my love of play. I’ve just sort of always pursued play, and yeah.

Hussein Al-Baiaty: Wow, what a journey. I mean, I think I love the idea that, as you were young, you sort of organized play. You organize these fun gatherings, these things, but they were kind of foretelling what you would inevitably be getting into, which was really powerful. I really love the idea of play, and it’s unique. When we’re young, every time, you think about when you were young, you’re outside, you’re playing. I know we played basketball till –

Kristi Herold: Till the streetlights come on?

Hussein Al-Baiaty: Exactly, or later.

Kristi Herold: My mom would be like, “Get outside and play. Come home when the streetlights come on.” 

Hussein Al-Baiaty: Yeah. And there’s just something so beautiful about—it’s kind of defined an era, I think, for us, right? In the ’80s and ’90s, we loved our video games and things. But we were outside. And I just appreciate when people talk about play and work, and you talk about that a little bit in your book. You say, when you find that thing that you love, it would never feel like work again, because it feels like you’re playing. For me, I grew up an artist, I grew up graphic designing, and all those things. I went to school for art. All that good stuff.

But I kind of found like, as I went through my career, I found anytime I was doing art, or graphics, or now even speaking, or doing anything artistic, it felt like play to me, because I’m just like, “This is just what I’m good at. I’m naturally gifted at this. I’m very blessed that I have this talent. But where can I apply it and be challenged? Where can I apply it and still be myself?” So, it’s those finding of niches of areas and places and groups that you kind of not only find what you enjoy, but you kind of find your people. You kind of find your vibe. But there’s sometimes an intention behind creating that vibe, right? Especially from a corporate setting. There’s an intention from a leader that sets the mood about what the culture looks like.

In your book, you talk a lot about these kinds of things, which is really powerful and why I’m excited to talk with you. Because a lot of our listeners  business owners or entrepreneurs or leaders or people who are in that corporate world, in some way, shape, or form if they’re not running it, right? So, tell me, how do you define the word “play”?

Definition of “Play”

Kristi Herold: The definition of play. Well, I have the definition in my book, as engaging in an activity for enjoyment and recreation rather than a serious or practical purpose. That is play. Well, and that’s the whole idea behind the book, I think, came from, I built a business selling play of sports leagues initially for the first 25 years, and now we sell the corporate side, too. But as I was building my business, I mean, we built up to having about 40 full-time employees, 350 part time employees. So, it’s not like it was just me running these sports leagues. I have a big team of people who are helping make this happen. And I’ve realized over the years that culture is really important, and we just sort of had this organic culture that has been really playful in like the way we’ve always done things and we’ve incorporated a lot – like play doesn’t need to mean, “Sign up for a sports team with your work friends.” There’s not just one way to play. There are so many ways to play. That is a great option but there are lots and lots of ways we can play. 

We can be playful with how we communicate, have our communications, whether on our website or our emails. We can be playful with a daily – we have a daily huddle that’s a seven-minute meeting. And those that are able to be in the office in person are in person the boardroom for it, and the majority of us are calling in by Zoom or whatever, Teams, video call. But it’s seven minutes every single day, and there’s always fun had at the huddle. It’s run by a different person every day, a different leader. And the leader at the end of every huddle has leader’s choice. The huddle meeting has important information that’s shared. But there’s always something playful.

We have a mayor at our office. Every four months, we have a new mayor that gets elected. And that mayor is in charge of planning social events. We celebrate really playfully. Every time someone hits their one-year anniversary with us, they get officially drafted to our team and we give them a hockey jersey, that’s a JAM hockey jersey, and then their name is on the back of it, and their number is the year they started with us. So, our veterans…

Hussein Al-Baiaty: That’s so tight.

Kristi Herold:…they become veterans. And we have a lot of different playful celebrations. We have our Core Value Award. Then we also do—we do our own JAM events for ourselves once a month. Every month, we have a luncheon laugh, a virtual event with our team. We’re constantly finding ways to play and I think what I loved in my book, in doing the research for my book, and talking with different leaders who have strong cultures, is just getting all these different ideas. One friend has a company who, at their company, they have a—it’s Ray Minato and Inertia Design, and they have a band once a month, a work band. So, they play music together.

We have a book club. We read a book and discuss a book every two months together. That’s a form of play. So, play can come in so many different ways. I guess, sadly, too many people think that when we grow up, we should stop playing. I think that the truth is quite the opposite. That play is incredibly powerful and actually can—as I was doing a lot of speaking, I got asked to do speaking well before I did this book about sort of our culture, because people were looking at the culture we had at our business and sort of saying, “Well, how do you do that?” So, I had this talk I did. It was the top 10 list, like top 10 easy to implement tactical ideas for incorporating play into the workplace. And I just did it because people were asking us, “How do you inject—how do you get a great culture?” And I really believe like vision, values, mission or purpose, like those are all incredibly, incredibly important pillars. But if you don’t have a team that’s really connected and having fun together, who cares about your core values written on the wall? Who cares about your vision? Because if your team is quitting, not loyal, if they’re not engaged, if they’re not physically healthy or mentally healthy, they’re not energetic or creative, none of those things matter if they’re not connected and willing to implement all those beautiful things.

So, culture, a strong healthy culture really takes a really healthy connected team, as well as vision, values, and mission, and purpose to sort of round it out. The beautiful thing is that play can help with all of those things. We know that play can help with retention. We know it can help with engagement and energy and physical health and mental health and creativity, and we know that happier employees make happier customers. So, play really is a powerful, powerful tool that is just so overlooked, and it’s not very expensive to implement. In some ways, it doesn’t have to cost much of anything at all. It’s just how we choose to do things.

Hussein Al-Baiaty: Right. And it sounds like it costs a mindset, a mindset shift. It costs that ability to say, “You know what, to cut through the seriousness of whatever it is that we’re doing, cut through that tension, we need to introduce something that releases that tension, that allows us to have fun, poke fun.” That’s the thing about sports. So, when I grew up, I played basketball, all those fun things. I did a lot of track. But what I’m into now is like, I love boxing, right? So much like I signed up for a boxing class, and I was, “Oh, my god, I love this.” I’m 37, right? So, I’m like, “How do I become an amateur fighter?” Because it’s just like, this is so fun and invigorating.

Here’s the other thing about play, you have to be in the moment. You have to be in the right now. I think that’s the most invigorating thing is when you are just immersed in the right now of the company, the people, the actions you’re taking, because I feel like a lot of cultures, sometimes we’re dwelling too much in forecasting, like, “What are our sales going to look like? We gotta meet these deadlines. We got to do these things.” So a lot of it is in the future, which is fine, I mean, as a company, you gotta strategize, right?

Kristi Herold: Yeah. You have to hit your numbers. But if you can be having fun while you’re doing it, how much better is that?

Hussein Al-Baiaty: Exactly. I was going to say, you talked about something really powerful at the beginning of the book, which is literally the power of play stops wars. That’s so profound. People forget that. Can you talk a little bit about—I feel like that’s atomic. That’s how powerful it is. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Photo by Pixabay from Pexels:

Power of Play

Kristi Herold: It is really interesting and I was excited to start the book with that just to sort of go, pay attention because this is not—play is not just for kids. It’s something we should be doing throughout our lives. The idea that not just once, but twice, or multiple times, play has stopped war and that the Olympic competitions in ancient Greece, they had truces made during those times, that armies were not allowed to threaten the games or visitors traveling to attend when the Olympic Games were going on. It was absolutely legally forbidden.

So, because people—it was like, “We are playing now, we are doing these Olympics,” so it was known as the Olympic Truce, because they valued the art of playing games so much that it took precedence over the fighting, which is pretty incredible. And then, sort of more recent, in World War One, there was a proven example, it was called the Christmas Truce, December of 1914. The Germans and the allies were actively fighting and as Christmas approached, the Germans and the Allied troops basically sort of communicated across the lines, that they wanted to have a truce, and they put down their guns for a 24-hour period. Someone broke out a soccer ball. There’s photographic evidence of Germans and Allied soldiers playing a game of soccer together on the battlefield. And they literally like stopped fighting, they stopped killing each other, to play a game of soccer. And then when they stopped playing, they went back to killing each other, which is just like, so sad.

Hussein Al-Baiaty: It’s mind bending. When I was reading through that, and looking at the pictures and stuff, I mean, you hear of this stuff, but when you vividly describe it throughout your book, I am just mind blown. I’m like, how can we be literally mortal enemies, but for 24 hours, we’re just going to play? It’s so fascinating. You’re right. It cuts through—I mean, I would say like, that’s the darkest of humanity, when we’re doing that to each other. Yeah. But it cuts through that and says, “You know what, let’s just play for a minute.”

Kristi Herold: Just play, get some laughs.

Hussein Al-Baiaty: Imagine if we continue playing, continue playing and hash out our differences. I mean, another great example, because I’ve read quite a bit about Nelson Mandela, and how he came out and turned—was it the rugby teams? And like how he united an entire nation that was completely falling apart through sport. That’s how he mechanized and helped the people unite. There’s still obviously a lot of political tension, all these things, but he was trying to do it through sport, because he knew the power of sport and bringing people together. I love that so much.

Kristi Herold: It was really actually pretty wild for me. I didn’t write about this in the book but just in August, I was in Poland. My son was on Team Canada for Ultimate Frisbee. So, we were in Poland for the World Junior Championships. And in the sport of Ultimate Frisbee, which is actually what gave—it’s actually like the sport began with this whole concept of “spirit of the game,” meaning there are no referees or officials, you call your own fouls, and you play with good spirit and like sportsmanship. And if there’s ever debates, like there’s ways to settle everything.

So, this is how the whole sport of Ultimate is based on. That’s actually 27 years ago when I started our sports leagues, every sport we offered was based around the rules of Ultimate. So, we have self-officiated basketball, self-officiated football, soccer, ultimate volleyball. When we started, everything was self-officiated. Now, we have both self-officiated and refereed. But what was mind blowing in Poland was watching these young kids, 18-year-olds, 17 and 18-year-olds, competing at an international level. So, we’re talking kids from Columbia, and from New Zealand and from Canada and the US and France and Italy, and they all speak different languages. There were no referees. It was a World Championship, and they could play a game, and they could communicate. If they had to disagree on something, it was all communicated through sign language. And it’s just a beautiful thing. Play is just an incredibly beautiful thing. 

And to your point earlier about how we have to be in the moment and how we spend so much time forecasting, one of my favorite stories from the book, I think, is this friend, Jonathan Lister. He used to work at LinkedIn. He was a vice president at LinkedIn for about 12 years, and he resigned or retired from LinkedIn, maybe about a year ago now, I think. And I remember seeing his post, he was posting a beautiful shout out to LinkedIn and his 12 years there and it was a really lovely post. And he was saying, “My top three favorite memories of my time at LinkedIn or the top three things I’m most proud of are the numbers,” obviously, the strategy they implemented, the growth that they had in terms of revenues and members. But the number three was, “The culture we created.” And what was most powerful, I found, was that he posted seven photos of his time working at LinkedIn. There wasn’t a single photo of a boardroom meeting. In five of those seven photos, he was wearing a silly costume, having fun of some—a different costume, having fun of some sort at these corporate fun team building events and playful events.

That is where his memories lie. When he thinks back to the joyful times he had in his work at LinkedIn, the joy comes from those types of fond memories, right? And that’s what I think is so important for all of us to remember. If we really want our teams engaged and excited to come to work, they have to have friends in the workplace. How did you feel when you were a little kid, if you were going to school, were you excited to go to school if you had no friends to play with at recess? Like we all know, you were much more excited if you had friends that you were looking forward to seeing at school. It’s no different, just because we’re grownups when we go to work, we still have to be excited and engaged with what we’re doing. So, having friends in the workplace that we can have some laughs with, and we can play with a little bit while we’re getting our work done, it’s really not—it’s just so, so powerful, and it just keeps people so much more engaged and makes for such a healthier workplace culture, versus toxic environments that where no fun is had at all.

Hussein Al-Baiaty: And those toxic environments, I mean, they’re eradicated in the presence of play, I think.

Kristi Herold: Yes, exactly.

Hussein Al-Baiaty: When you introduce play, I mean, you introduce play to war and it eradicates the tension. It’s that powerful. It’s quite literally atomic. I love that you bring our attention to that. So, what would you say is the number one benefit? There are tons. I mean, here we are, we haven’t stopped talking for the past 25 minutes about all the benefits. Let me ask you a different question, actually. Why is it difficult for leaders to merge play in their workplace? And how can leaders overcome that feeling?

Number One Benefit of Play

Kristi Herold: Yeah, I think a lot of leaders can possibly get stuck thinking—well, there’s a variety of reasons. For example, “Well, we’re spread all over the country, we can’t have a soccer team, or we can’t have a kickball team or softball team.” And they get stuck thinking play equals sports. But play doesn’t equal sports, right?

Hussein Al-Baiaty: Or like a ball.

Kristi Herold: Right. Exactly. Play could mean you provide your employees with a credit. Instead of a gym membership, provide them with credits to play in their local adult recreational sports league so that they are more mentally healthy and physically healthy. Because the Mayo Clinic has done studies that have proven—like the Mayo Clinic is no slack operation, right? Those guys know their stuff. So, they’ve done studies proving that when we combine play with our exercise, it will add 20% longevity to our lives.

So, meaning go work out at a gym. If all you can do is go do some weights or run on a treadmill, if that’s all you have time for, go do that, for sure. It’s good for you. But if you can combine that exercise with a basketball game, or a soccer game or a tennis game, you’re going to add years to your lives. And the reason is, the social connection, the mental health benefit you get from connecting socially with people when you play is incredibly powerful. So, a leader in an organization, provide that opportunity to your staff. Give them credits to go or if you are in the same city, sign up a team or a few teams to play in your local adult sports league, organization, whatever that they are. They exist all over North America. Or offer a musical band rehearsal like a jam session once a month for musical jam. There are so many ways to play and I think people get stuck thinking, “Well, we can’t do that.” Or they might think, “Well, we can’t really have fun with our communications because we’re dialed in like”—

Hussein Al-Baiaty: A lawyer.

Kristi Herold: Yeah, like we’re really a serious—I call BS.

Hussein Al-Baiaty: Me too.

Kristi Herold: I’m like, “Bullshit.” Let’s just call it what it is. No, you can actually have fun, and frankly, when you have a little more fun with your communications, your clients will feel like you’re a little more human and a little less scary, quite honestly.

Hussein Al-Baiaty: Yes.

Kristi Herold: When you get on an airplane and you have the servers that are like just, “Blah, blah, blah, blah.” It’s like listening to Charlie Brown’s teacher, so boring. Or you get on the airplanes, the Southwest’s of the world and the WestJet, when the flight attendants actually have some laughs and say some funny things, everyone in the airplane is laughing and it just kind of lightens the mood and it’s a serious business.

Hussein Al-Baiaty: Exactly.

Kristi Herold: It doesn’t get any more serious, frankly. You’ve got people’s lives in your hands. 

Hussein Al-Baiaty: Oh, my God, yes.

Kristi Herold: You can still have some fun. So, I think leaders can get stuck thinking, “We’re too serious, or we’re spread out over, or we don’t have time.” I would argue, we don’t not have time for play. When you don’t make time for play, you are hurting the energy, the health of your team, the engagement of your team, the retention. It’s so, so powerful and it doesn’t need to be super expensive to invest a little bit of time, a little bit of energy, a little bit of money in play, in the workplace. It’ll help attract better people as well. I have such a great example, I talked about in my book.

Hussein Al-Baiaty: Please share.

Kristi Herold: I have not one, but two teammates in the last couple of years, left JAM for what they felt would be a better career opportunity, more money, and we were so sad to see them both go. Sandeep and Taylor. They left within about four, six months of each other during the pandemic. They were great, great teammates so we were really sad. And I’ve always taken the approach of someone who’s a great teammate, I’m going to reach out to them and say, “Hey, it’s been a joy working with you. I wish you all the best in your next adventure and your new chapter. Really, really hope it goes well for you. And keep us in mind. If you ever find yourself in a position where you’re looking to get back and be on the JAM team again, don’t hesitate to reach out.” I always leave that door open for good people.

Interestingly, I reached out to Sandeep after he’d been gone for—he’d worked with us for about six and a half years, I reached out to him after about four months, just to check in. I’m in touch with a lot of my former teammates. They become friends, and so I care about them. So, I reached out to him, I was like, “Hey, just checking in. How’s it going at the new gig? I hope you’re happy. We miss you.” Whatever. He texted me back, and he said, “I’m absolutely miserable. I’m sending you my letter of resignation next week. There’s no culture here. They don’t care about me. They don’t care about people. No one cares about each other. There are no friendships. It’s awful.” And I said, “Oh, gosh, like I’m so sorry to hear this.” And I called him and I said, “Would you ever want to come back to JAM?” And he said, “I would be thrilled to get back to JAM.”

Hussein Al-Baiaty: Let’s go.

Kristi Herold: We couldn’t do it immediately. But within about six months, he was back on our team. And now he’s on our team and he has a career path ahead of him and he’s so excited to be back. He didn’t come back for the—we couldn’t pay him what he was going to be making at this other organization. But he was sort of like no amount of money is worth that kind of misery. And Taylor, very similar story. She left for what she felt would be a better career opportunity. She reached out to us and said, after about six months, and she said, “I’m absolutely miserable. My mental health, I can feel, is on the decline. I miss working with a team of people who care about me as a person, and who I like to have fun and laughs with. And I would love to get back on the team if there’s an opportunity.” And again, it wasn’t immediate. But within a few months, we had Taylor back on the team. She’s again, like, we couldn’t pay as much. But there’s something to be said about mental health and happiness. You’re going to work every day. You spend a lot of time in these places, right? More time than anywhere else, day to day. Don’t we want our teams to be happy, having some fun?

Hussein Al-Baiaty: Yeah. And that’s the thing. So, if we’re seeking happiness, then I think we’re aiming at the wrong thing. I think it’s a byproduct of what you get to do, right? I grew up in a refugee camp, and I got to come to America, and go to school and learn English and make friends. Oh, my God, I got to go to college. I mean, things that I know people around the world would literally die for, and the opportunities that were afforded to me, they’re unexplainable. So me, in my life, I always think about, what is the byproduct of what I’m about to do? What is it that I want to do? And what is the byproduct of that? Sometimes you won’t know right away, right? But sometimes you can almost point the finger to that and say, “You know what, I will probably be happy”—like doing what I’m doing right now. Having this amazing conversation with you, the byproduct of signing up to Scribe, I have written my book, I had a completely different trajectory business, all these things. But I completely changed it because I knew what I wanted the outcome of every single day, what I wanted that to look like, and who could help me get there. 

Now, that opens up a whole different world of opportunities, because I wanted a specific, like you said, like I want time to go play. I want time to hang out with my wife, be with my dog, whatever it is, and have creative input into what I’m doing. So, I can’t agree with you more on everything you’ve said. I seriously congratulate you so much. This is going to be an amazing book. It’s going to be so helpful for so many people out there to be able to integrate play in the ways that you have done righteously through your own business, but then also coaching and in showing people how to do it. Kristi, I think you’re onto something here, just saying.

Kristi Herold: Thank you.

Hussein Al-Baiaty: And you talk about it as if you know what you’re doing. It’s just great. I learned so much today. But if there’s one thing you want people to take away from your book, what would that be?

Kristi Herold: Oh, gosh. One thing from this book. I guess, just to always keep playing. What George Bernard Shaw says, “We don’t grow old because we stop playing.” Sorry, “We don’t stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing.” And there’s power in those words, like keep playing and find ways. In the book, there are so many fun ways to integrate play. There’s something for everybody, you can find lots and lots of ways to integrate play into the workplace, to make it a better, happier place for everyone, everyone on your team. And so, I just think, keep playing.

Hussein Al-Baiaty: Yeah, keep playing. I love that so much. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. Sharing your experiences, your stories. They’re so alive. Seriously, my heart over here is pumping, because I just feel your energy come through the microphone, through my headphones. I just appreciate that.

Kristi Herold: Well, thank you so much for having me chat today. It’s been great.

Hussein Al-Baiaty: Yeah, absolutely. So, the book is called, It Pays to PLAY: How Play in the Workplace Improves Business Culture.

Kristi Herold: No, it’s called, It Pays to PLAY: How Play Improves Business Culture.

Hussein Al-Baiaty: Oh, How Play Improves Business Culture. My apologies.

Kristi Herold: No worries.

Hussein Al-Baiaty: Besides checking out the book, where can people find you, Kristi?

Kristi Herold: Probably LinkedIn is the best. It’s Kristi with a K. K-R-I-S-T-I, Herold. H-E-R-O-L-D. So, on LinkedIn, and I have a website that is So, that’s also a great way to connect and I’ve got lots of great resources about some free playbooks at my website that I can provide people to who are looking for ideas on how they can get play happening in their workplace. So yeah, those are probably the two best, I’d say. I’m on Instagram and Facebook as well, and Twitter. I’m on it. I guess I’m everywhere, but—

Hussein Al-Baiaty: Just got to look you up. But LinkedIn is where it’s at.

Kristi Herold: Yeah.

Hussein Al-Baiaty: I appreciate you so much for taking the time today and hanging out with me and sharing your brilliant mind and the ideas of play. Thank you so much, Kristi.

Kristi Herold: Thanks for having me, Hussein.

Hussein Al-Baiaty: Absolutely.